tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post112794223333750756..comments2023-10-10T08:46:17.713-04:00Comments on drulogion: Is Jesus God?JohnLDruryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1128180737508204422005-10-01T11:32:00.000-04:002005-10-01T11:32:00.000-04:00"for we retain conscious life in the spirit until ..."for we retain conscious life in the spirit until resurrection (Christian Orthodox Theology)… "<BR/><BR/>is this strict orthodoxy or pious common denominator?<BR/><BR/>is there really such a narrow univocal voice?<BR/><BR/>great questions summers. all I can say right now is there are a lot of ways to cut this gordian know. I personally "solve" it by stating that we have no "disembodied meantime" but rather are resurrection into the future immediately. We will be resurrected into the future, and so we will partake in the general resurrection of all at once.<BR/><BR/>I base this on a Christological firstfruits parallel: just as jesus' resurrection was a future end time event that happened int he middle of time, so our end time resurrections will happen immediately for us. <BR/><BR/>BUT, this is only one way to cut the knot. There are a numbe rof options made room for in this so-called "orthodox christian theology"JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1128150704982270172005-10-01T03:11:00.000-04:002005-10-01T03:11:00.000-04:00Great discussion John,On the argument of the resur...Great discussion John,<BR/>On the argument of the resurrection, I have not heard a lot about the resurrection of life after death ‘between’ death and resurrection. My initial reaction to this is that the soul and spirit are still alive, for we retain conscious life in the spirit until resurrection (Christian Orthodox Theology)… implying that the body is corruptible, and the soul maintains conscious life (dualism). Yet in the resurrection, there is also the issue of the mind and body interaction. Where does the mind and body go after death? Is the material body capable of interfering with the natural order, outside of the rules of physics…this suggesting that we are no just natural/material physical beings (libertarian freedom)? <BR/>Looking forward to reading, your response(s)…have a great weekend!Summershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05542869485508483896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1128088201374439652005-09-30T09:50:00.000-04:002005-09-30T09:50:00.000-04:00andy,thanks for bringing that question in. certai...andy,<BR/><BR/>thanks for bringing that question in. certainly the way it has been formulated in my post and these comments has left the holy spirit our entirely. note that I have been using the term "trinity" a narrow sense regarding the etneral divinity of the son who became incarnate in Jesus. This is not innapprorpiate since that was the focus of Nicaea (pre-Constantinople). Although I could make an arguement for threeness working better than twoness, it remains problematic that the spirit gets short shrift. I'll just admit that I am quite western in my understanding of the trinity, so I think of the Spirit in terms of his being the personal unity of the Father and Son, hence the discussion starts in a binitarian way (as did Nicaea, which is not truly trinitarian in the threeness sense).JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1128047608083719402005-09-29T22:33:00.000-04:002005-09-29T22:33:00.000-04:00Interesting.I've said it before, I'll say it again...Interesting.<BR/><BR/>I've said it before, I'll say it again--biblical studies and theology need to talk more. The question I would raise is whether the Incarnation requires the Trinity, or whether the Incarnation COULD stand on its own. The Councils did get to Christology via the Trinity, but did they have to? Could there have been a binitarian theology just as easily as a trinitarian one? For instance, Larry Hurtado talks about a nascent binitarianism in his evaluation of early Christian worship (Cf. Lord Jesus Christ; One Lord, One God). <BR/><BR/>In some ways it is a question of method. Hurtado and those like-minded (i.e. biblical scholars) build from the sources rather than received tradition. Regardless, do we need the Trinity to explain Christology? <BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting we jettison the Trinity. Call me the devil's (heretic's?) advocate. Just raising the question (and pointing out the uneasy bedfellows).Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02322476768181129691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1128039728558220482005-09-29T20:22:00.000-04:002005-09-29T20:22:00.000-04:00JOHN SAID>>>>In other words, the Trinity is the di...JOHN SAID>>>>In other words, the Trinity is the divine line of credit upon which the Incarnation draws. <<<<BR/><BR/>I am going to ponder this sentence for a few weeks... <B>Delicious! </B>Keith Druryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05058949281404407630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1128027931081080072005-09-29T17:05:00.000-04:002005-09-29T17:05:00.000-04:00just.jay,it's all related, so no worries on pushin...just.jay,<BR/><BR/>it's all related, so no worries on pushing it.<BR/><BR/>What does everybody think? Is the "faith is a gift of the holy spirit" a commendable statement? Or is it misleading? Are there non-calvinistic ways of construing this principle? if so, what do they look like? how are we defining "faith"? how are we defining "gift"?JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1128005022545799802005-09-29T10:43:00.000-04:002005-09-29T10:43:00.000-04:00Summers,The ground of our knowledge of the mystery...Summers,<BR/>The ground of our knowledge of the mystery of Jesus Christ himself who is more than capable of revealing himself. He doesn't need our help. I believe the Resurrection stories illustrate this. <BR/><BR/>However, we might need a little help, so if we want to point to this or that evidence or argument, that's fine, as long as these factors are never regarded as the GROUND of our belief. Faith is a gift of the spirit, not the conclusion of a syllogism.JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1128003341191618462005-09-29T10:15:00.000-04:002005-09-29T10:15:00.000-04:00Thanks for the insights. When you have some time, ...Thanks for the insights. When you have some time, could you expound on the comment: <BR/>"All other "proofs" are only secondary aids to the Work of the Spirit. Note that after the resurrection, the disciples never recognize Jesus until he wants them to"...just curious.Summershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05542869485508483896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1127996395993639602005-09-29T08:19:00.001-04:002005-09-29T08:19:00.001-04:00Summers,You brought up the very important point of...Summers,<BR/><BR/>You brought up the very important point of the mode of our knowing the incarnation. I agree that we cannot prove incarnation in a strict sense. The most Christians can do is remove obstacles to belief (such an objection that we are simply worshipping a man, to which this post was responding). But we certainly don't have the resources within ourselves to ascribe deity to Jesus. He'll have to find a way to self-attest through word and sacrament, to which we bear witness. All other "proofs" are only secondary aids to the Work of the Spirit. Note that after the resurrection, the disciples never recognize Jesus until he wants them to - hmmmmm....JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1127996382044882082005-09-29T08:19:00.000-04:002005-09-29T08:19:00.000-04:00Ken,Great question! The full humanity of Jesus is...Ken,<BR/><BR/>Great question! The full humanity of Jesus is permanently in tact, and that's a good point to remember. As I put it to my students: "Stop saying Jesus WAS a Jew; Jesus IS a Jew."<BR/><BR/>My short but not uncontroversial answer: God doesn't "gain" anything by permanently taking on human flesh because the second person of the trinity was destined by character & will to assume human flesh. In other words, the eternal name of the second person of the trinity is Jesus Christ. Yet this is rooted in foreknowledge (which for God is determinative) and thus he is still God without the world, though he certainly chooses to be God with the world as the incarnation shows.JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1127970594232566812005-09-29T01:09:00.000-04:002005-09-29T01:09:00.000-04:00Wow, what a question. If a gun was to my head, and...Wow, what a question. If a gun was to my head, and I had to give direct answer to the question, I would say (with the influence of my pre-suppositions) that it is a tautological question...but of course, a split second later, I probably would have been dead :)<BR/><BR/>However, in regards to the 'one' asking and searching 'IS Jesus God', I would suggest that they are inclined to ask this, but they also must keep in mind that, on the premise of 'Knowledge', one has the right to believe things, or in some thing, without absolute proof. Which this belief through knowledge is gained: First, on the basis of testimony (resurrection, etc.); Second, experientially known and remembered (disciples, Mary, Martha, Saul/Paul, and still today); Third, sensual evidence/experience (worship, miracles, etc.) and Fourth, laws of logic, inductive and deductive reasoning (study, community, history, etc.). <BR/><BR/>…just a thought!Summershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05542869485508483896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1127956249387207092005-09-28T21:10:00.000-04:002005-09-28T21:10:00.000-04:00Does the Trinity "gain" anything with the incarnat...Does the Trinity "gain" anything with the incarnation? If I understand right, the second person of the Trinity, while not human before the incarnation, remains fully human after the resurrection, yes? Did the human Jesus learn to speak and how to catch fish? Did he have a personality linked in some way to the x chromosome of his mother?<BR/><BR/>Idle questions to explore the natures...Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.com