tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post113218129768518946..comments2023-10-10T08:46:17.713-04:00Comments on drulogion: The Creator of the Universe and the God of IsraelJohnLDruryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1132797157936685062005-11-23T20:52:00.000-05:002005-11-23T20:52:00.000-05:00Great discussion everyone! It seems that there i...Great discussion everyone! It seems that there is a thematic thread running through this discussion that the universal and particular relate like an hour glass: we move from universal through particular back to universal again. I think this may be the image that recognizes the emphases of both statements as well as takes into account most of the concerned voiced here. Thanks for a great discussion -- very stimulating.<BR/><BR/>PS - Mandy asked for my answer, and I would contend that for the sake of Christ's uniqueness I would lean towards emphasizing the God of Israel as the identifer of Jesus, though certainly without every losing the universal aspect. The missiological problematic should be dealt with in terms of the particular God to whom we witness, and in our missionary zeal we should not be tempted to move upstream to adjust the doctrine of God in light of our ministry. Certainly this God has called us to this ministry, so they must go together even if it takes a little work to think it through.JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1132610652122293212005-11-21T17:04:00.000-05:002005-11-21T17:04:00.000-05:00As usual, great theological questions for us to po...As usual, great theological questions for us to ponder, however, I do not think that one of two are wrong, however, missiologically I believe that “the God of Israel is the Creator”, poses a greater problem when trying to communicate who God is and all that He encompasses. As you stated, this view ‘is’ harder to bridge across cultural boundaries. When facing issues of Social Justice, Religions within Western and Eastern Religions societies, along with cultural norms and practices, missiologically, “the Creator of the Universe is the God of Israel”, provides avenues to insert their Story into the One that Created the Universe, while expressing His Love and Power through His People (Israel). Yet, as always, in practice, this is easier said and done. <BR/>Side Note: I agree with your dad…all who read your posts should receive some type of graduate credit :) …have a restful thanksgiving!<BR/><BR/>-J-Summershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05542869485508483896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1132438787070141432005-11-19T17:19:00.000-05:002005-11-19T17:19:00.000-05:00People should get graduate credit for reading your...People should get graduate credit for reading your blog..and bonus points for reading the fine comments (except this one)Keith Druryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05058949281404407630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1132352625515440312005-11-18T17:23:00.000-05:002005-11-18T17:23:00.000-05:00I would argue for the position that the Creator of...I would argue for the position that the Creator of the Universe is the God of Israel for the following reasons:<BR/><BR/>1)As Just Jay suggests, the Bible begins with Creation;<BR/><BR/>2) I would also prefer this for missiological reasons. Emphasizing the universality of God reminds us of God's ultimate mission -- redemption not merely of Israel, but of all of Creation. Israel is the instrument.<BR/><BR/>Great discussion!Brian Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10905261072920386840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1132346044474629352005-11-18T15:34:00.000-05:002005-11-18T15:34:00.000-05:00Who are we to separate who God is in one particula...Who are we to separate who God is in one particular over another? Just as Jesus was <B>fully</B> God and <B>fully</B> man. God is <B>fully</B> the Creator of the Universe and <B>fully</B> the God of Israel. I guess I'm in line with Dave Ward in my thinking. <BR/><BR/>Happy belated birthday btw John!!<BR/><BR/>Later,<BR/>Corey RockeyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1132343277713394572005-11-18T14:47:00.000-05:002005-11-18T14:47:00.000-05:00I'm with Amanda.Is there some sort of Thomistic re...I'm with Amanda.<BR/><BR/>Is there some sort of Thomistic resolution to these disputations?millinerdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01881164503284706248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1132323958310954742005-11-18T09:25:00.000-05:002005-11-18T09:25:00.000-05:00I wanna know what YOU think, John. You got to ask...I wanna know what YOU think, John. You got to ask the question and pawn it off on us...no fair. ;)<BR/><BR/>Do you lean to one side or the other?<BR/><BR/>AmandaAmandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10446605654747592907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1132322755745290852005-11-18T09:05:00.000-05:002005-11-18T09:05:00.000-05:00Excellent question and framing of the debate. The...Excellent question and framing of the debate. These "discusison starters" are so good... I've never really thought of this question so it's helping me gain a "fuller" theology, if not a tighter one.<BR/><BR/>On this particular question I would lean to the particularist side (no pun intended). However, I wonder if there is a third or even a fourth option that is more "descriptive" of "what actually happens" in one's theology.<BR/><BR/>#3: We start by believing in the Creator God and then we move to believe in the God of Israel. This is a nuance on the prior, because it's saying: "The Creator of the Universe was the God of Israel All Along." I think this "transition" has been the fundamental "modern apologetics" problem, as you implied in your post. Modern apologetics has started often with proofs of the Creator God's existence and then has struggled with trying to connect those dots with the God of Israel and special revelation of Scripture and Jesus.<BR/><BR/>#4 Others start believing in the God of Israel in a more traditional sense (it "rubs off on them" because they grow up in the church.) Over time they go through a transition in which they move beyond believing in the God if Israel simply because their Church and/or parents do, and begin to come to a realization that this specific God-talk has to do with he Creator God. So, they believer that "The God of Israel I've heard of is the Supreme Being Creator of the Universe" and you might say that their belief system simply expands--instead of truly changing.<BR/><BR/>These categories aren't really "within" your binary list... but are indeed another list that thinks of the "process" of belief rather than the mechanics. But that's why the world needs both theologians and pastors. :-)David Druryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11935888468388634009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1132256328225938942005-11-17T14:38:00.000-05:002005-11-17T14:38:00.000-05:00I think both. I like to always think both when I ...I think both. <BR/><BR/>I like to always think both when I can. Sorry Bud Bence who always wants us to fall off the log. <BR/><BR/>But I think I should qualify my both by actually saying "It depends." I think to those of us already swept up into the particularity of God's story in the world it must be that the God of Istrael is the Creator of the Universe. For us that is what is true. The particularity of who God is finds itself in the pages of history with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob etc. <BR/><BR/>But, those who have never been swept up into the history of God's story in the world yet (as we know it to be...) MUST find the Creator of the Universe. They may never find the God of Israel until that surprising day when they are invited to rest and they say "Lord?"<BR/><BR/>In other words, to me as I write off the cuff with whatever seems best at the moment, the guy on the desert island and the unreached tribal warrior all find God as the universal creator. Eternity has been written in their hearts, and they might act as a law to themselves.<BR/><BR/>But to those who have turned the pages of scripture, heard the scandalous story of the cross, and encountered this "good news" that smells like death at first, they MUST find the God of Israel if they are to find God at all. <BR/><BR/>At least...that's how I think right now. <BR/><BR/><BR/>GREAT QUESTION. LOVE IT!<BR/><BR/>If that's true...big missiological implications I think. Find the "divine markers" of God in the universal first, then bring in the particular. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Hmm....just had another thought though. What if the only reason the emphasis is on the particular for those who know is that they already know. They have already moved through the season of emphasis on the universal. Maybe we ALWAYS start with the universal (like the canon) and emphasize the particular knowing we will end with the universal again someday (like the canon)<BR/><BR/>I think I wrote too much already. :)<BR/><BR/>Dave WardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1132227790569385302005-11-17T06:43:00.000-05:002005-11-17T06:43:00.000-05:00The God of Israel is the Creator of the Universe. ...The God of Israel is the Creator of the Universe. The fact that Christ focused so much on the individual relationship.<BR/>The Samaratan Woman, Zachecios, and Paul for examples. Then the whole thing about God numbering the hairs on our heads and knowing about the sparrows in the field. <BR/><BR/>While God obviously is big enough to create everything with one word. His desire that all be saved is amazing. <BR/><BR/>that's my Buck fiftyDAKOTARANGERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13549098186484275715noreply@blogger.com