tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post114064297273449423..comments2023-10-10T08:46:17.713-04:00Comments on drulogion: Is Finding Your Keys a Miracle?JohnLDruryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1149992697477252402006-06-10T22:24:00.000-04:002006-06-10T22:24:00.000-04:00Anonymous asks: As to finding keys after prayer...Anonymous asks: As to finding keys after prayer discussion please comment on the miracle when the woman with the issue of blood touched the hem of his garment? This was a miracle to her...did others around her know about her condition? How did Christ reveal Himself to the crowd? Was it specifically a personal revelation simply to the woman? And what about "according to your faith be it done unto you..."? I am a lay person without your wonderful education and experience--so reading intrigues me and opens my mind to things I never thought about. Keep up the good work! eaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1141141282130258672006-02-28T10:41:00.000-05:002006-02-28T10:41:00.000-05:00John, the reason I most like your proposal is also...John, the reason I most like your proposal is also raises my greatest concern.<BR/><BR/>The reason I like it is your connection with John and the importance of miracles being signs. Of course, connected with signs is significance. Just as parables tell the story of the kingdom--but only for those with ears to hear, so do signs become significant for those with eyes to see and openness to believe. So, your proposal emphasizes the interactive relationship that both is necessary for miracles to happen and for them to be interpreted as miracles.<BR/><BR/>Here is my concern: Does this equation possibly take God from the picture? It seems to me that one could legitimately admit that something is a miracle for someone else, but not themself. So, the same act of Jesus could both be a sign and a very neat trick depending on who is seeing--and Jesus' opinion would be irrelevant.<BR/><BR/>This would draw us to some kind of Hickian eschatological epistemic suspension of miracles... Perhaps this is why Saint John structures his greatest miracle as the raising of Lazarus--because it points best to the eschatological raising of Jesus which points to the final eschatological raising of the rest (which confirms those who had ears to hear).Aaron Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02299034713765681549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1141064058964799362006-02-27T13:14:00.000-05:002006-02-27T13:14:00.000-05:00Finding your keys, (or your wedding ring, or your ...Finding your keys, (or your wedding ring, or your new digital camera...) is an answer to prayer. Miraculous? Maybe not, but faith building? Yes.julhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15688008902332240637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140816334434709752006-02-24T16:25:00.000-05:002006-02-24T16:25:00.000-05:00Very helpful post. Maybe every bush is burning.Very helpful post. Maybe every bush <I>is</I> burning.millinerdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01881164503284706248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140806609458881992006-02-24T13:43:00.000-05:002006-02-24T13:43:00.000-05:00I am on page with Nathan's thoughts and a line fro...I am on page with Nathan's thoughts and a line from A.J. <BR/><BR/>It becomes a debate of "Who gets to decide the criteria?"<BR/><BR/>Nathan--"By making miracles about intention, instead of about God exceeding the laws of nature, then miracles become subjective, instead of something to be viewed and unexplained by natural occurance, which isn't miraculous."<BR/><BR/>Me-- Yet, if God is truly communicated and revealed through this action, regardless of mode (and our doubts), does it really matter if it subjective? I see a power struggle emerging. If "we" can't tell whether something was a "miracle" in someone else's life, it can be somewhat frigthtening and powerless. But I guess the question to ask is: "Is this necessarily a bad thing?"Mike Clinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08968049104737268713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140787284671168822006-02-24T08:21:00.000-05:002006-02-24T08:21:00.000-05:00Thanks for your clarification on this stuff John. ...Thanks for your clarification on this stuff John. It does seem to make sense that the miracles in scripture were given as a sign. I'm still not ready to give up on the whole outside the normalness of miracles but I think if we take the view that they are a sign then it only makes sense that many/most/all would be things outside of the realm of the “normal” simply because that is what would get our attention so then in that view miracles might tend to be out of the normal but they don’t need to be. In this view mode becomes a function of intent. You might say God’s miracles are Purpose Driven ™. (joking)theajthomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02056406355744652819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140745084738243922006-02-23T20:38:00.000-05:002006-02-23T20:38:00.000-05:00How did my sons turn out smarter than me?Wish I'd ...How did my sons turn out smarter than me?<BR/><BR/>Wish I'd written that!Keith Druryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05058949281404407630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140707676343006962006-02-23T10:14:00.000-05:002006-02-23T10:14:00.000-05:00Ken,You are correct. I am comparing apples to ora...Ken,<BR/><BR/>You are correct. I am comparing apples to oranges. In my mind, that's the only way to find a true "third way" that is not merely a balancing middle position on a spectrum of extremes. I am intentionally reframing the issue to ascertain a more apt definition. My task may fail, but I will stand by my procedure: when stuck between a rock and hard place, go fishing.JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140704881986748482006-02-23T09:28:00.000-05:002006-02-23T09:28:00.000-05:00Yes, I would agree that I basically take a first c...Yes, I would agree that I basically take a first category view (although without Hume's circular pessimism). If I understand the third category (and I'm not 100% sure I do), then it is in a sense not really addressing the same question the first two views ask but tweeking the issue a little. We define a miracle as anything revelatory and consign issues of "within" or "without" to mystery--"whereof one cannot speak one must be silent." Is that right?Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140702966228780222006-02-23T08:56:00.000-05:002006-02-23T08:56:00.000-05:00AJ,Good call on keys being pretty lame revelatory ...AJ,<BR/><BR/>Good call on keys being pretty lame revelatory miracle. It was more a thought expirment than anything. But if the case is distracting, please dump it. You have turned us to the role of miracles in Scripture, which is a much better place from which to work.<BR/><BR/>As for the miracles as revelation, it seems that most of Jesus' miracles are <I>intended</I> as revelatory. The fact that the people don't get it and that it remains mysterious doesn't remove the revelatory intent. Actually, Jesus scolds people for not believing on the basis of signs, hence his occasional refuse to perform them. In the book of John, miracles as signs is abundantly clear. But even in Mark 2 (still under the messianic secrecy) Jesus first forgives the paralytic <I>then</I> heals him expressly as a sign that the son of man can forgive. So it seems like generally speaking Jesus' miracles are intended to reveal his identity. Thus the mode of agency (natural, supranatural, supernatural, nonnatural, etc) is really a secondary concern. A miracle is more teleologically defined. In other words, what makes a divine action a miracle is its purpose, not its mode of agency.<BR/><BR/>As for your last question, that's the rub, but the rub is the point. As long as we focus on mode of agency, we must seek a naturalistic criterion to declare an action miracluous. Although I am not opposed to modest naturalism per se, it is clearly not the mindset inhabited by the biblical stories and will therefore be of no use hermeneutically. <BR/><BR/>However, if we define miracles as signs, then identifying them becomes a little easier because we can presuppose that if people do come to faith in Christ by means of a divine action, that such an action was most likely miraculous. We still can't say for sure (who knows the mind of God?), but it seems logical that if the Holy Spirit arouses faith in a person through a creaturely medium that God intended to do so (aka it wasn't an accident).JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140701706345468282006-02-23T08:35:00.000-05:002006-02-23T08:35:00.000-05:00If God was going to reveal himself to me I would h...If God was going to reveal himself to me I would hope it was through something better than finding my keys. God covering up for my ineptitude doesn’t exactly move me to worship. To me the notion that God helps me find my keys is no more meaningful than the “everything is a miracle” view.<BR/>I guess I would tend to view a miracle as something that cannot be explained by the natural progression of events. I think the Gospel writers certainly saw the miracles of Jesus as out of the ordinary. Stuff like healing the sick and raising the dead. I think if you went straight from the gospels you could make a case for miracles being a direct act of God that overcomes the effects of the fall. It’s a stretch and there are a few other miracles you would have to explain but most of them would fall under that view. Did Jesus heal people before He let the messianic cat out of the bag? How does that affect the revelation view? Once we get what a miracle is categorically I’d love to discuss who decides what was a miracle in any particular case.theajthomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02056406355744652819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140698175451331812006-02-23T07:36:00.000-05:002006-02-23T07:36:00.000-05:00pk,I am glad it helped you. That is exactly have I...pk,<BR/>I am glad it helped you. That is exactly have I've felt. It was my ossilation between those two views that drove me toward seeking this third option. I was surprised to find it was right there in Augustine. (Shame on me for being surprised - he somewhere treats about every possible theological problem, and usually quite satisfactorily)<BR/><BR/>jldJohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140697967979267442006-02-23T07:32:00.000-05:002006-02-23T07:32:00.000-05:00Ken,Extra-causality is a more thoughtful version o...Ken,<BR/><BR/>Extra-causality is a more thoughtful version of the first view. God is not bullying nature, so that's good. However, it is still within the first paradigm because it focuses on the <B>mode</B> of divine action. The alternative view I am proposing focusing on the <B>intent</B> of divine action. <BR/><BR/>You questioned the revelatory character of all extra-causal actions, a question which presupposes a hybrid of these two views. Now there may be an overlap, but I am unconcerned with mode. Did God work extra-causally in a particular case? Who knows? Who cares? Was God reveal in a particular case? If so, then it is a miracle, whatever the mode. That's the kind of refocusing I am trying to do. <BR/><BR/>As for God's direct involvement or non-involvement in suffering, that is a whole other (though related conversation). For the time being, we can stick to he agency of all <I>good</I> actions for the sake of argument. God is behind them all; only some function to reveal.JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140676239051736412006-02-23T01:30:00.000-05:002006-02-23T01:30:00.000-05:00Thanks for this John. I find myself getting cynica...Thanks for this John. I find myself getting cynically upset with Christians who see everything as a miracle. And then in the very next moment I get upset at myself for getting upset at these other Christians. And then I just don't want to think about it anymore.<BR/><BR/>You have given me a new path of thinking.pkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07705476552683778383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140661668764373492006-02-22T21:27:00.000-05:002006-02-22T21:27:00.000-05:00I have never been able to get myself out of the na...I have never been able to get myself out of the natural-supernatural paradigm, although the way it turns out for me is not too far from Augustine. Starting with ex nihilo creation and affirming that the creation is distinct from God rather than an extension, I define a miracle as an action by God that involves "extra-causality," a cause that is not within the cause-effect chain of the creation.<BR/><BR/>What I do not know is whether this really works. Is God at work in innumerable quantum events all the time? I would hold back from Augustine because I'm not sure that all such extra-causes would be for the purpose of revelation.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, this system allows me not to hold God directly (a key word) responsible for every bout of cancer or every car accident. Sometimes an object on trajectory x crosses object on trajector y and metal gets crunched. God allows and doesn't intervene, and someone goes to the hospital.<BR/><BR/>Not an answer, but a predilection.Ken Schenckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745548537303356655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14736201.post-1140643281465047022006-02-22T16:21:00.000-05:002006-02-22T16:21:00.000-05:00Outakes:.Here's part of the main post that I cut f...<B>Outakes:</B>.<BR/><BR/>Here's part of the main post that I cut for length reaons. I thought some of you might enjoy reading my discussion of how the first two views would treat the finding your keys scenerio. I hope this clarifies why I think the third option gleaned from Augustine is the best:<BR/><BR/>Under the first view [divine intervention], one could say that finding your keys was a divine suspension of the laws of nature. For instance, you could claim that the keys were not in your purse before you prayed, but after you prayed God intervened by moving the keys from the dresser to your purse. This may be what many people think when they call this moment a miracle, but it is precisely such a claim that is so incredible. What a silly thing to believe, especially without evidence! Such a pronouncement is at best a conjecture, and at worst pious self-deception. So on further thought, one armed with this definition is better off denying that finding your keys is a miracle.<BR/> <BR/>Under the second view [everything is a miracle], one would certainly say that finding your keys is a miracle, because God is at work everywhere doing good things for his children. By defining a miracle as any action of God, one need not make the incredible claim that God moved the keys to your purse. Rather, you had a hard time finding them, then God helped you find them, and as a believer in the providence of God you pronounce it a miracle. The problem here is not (as with the first view) the incredibility of the claim, but its utter absence of meaning. It is a miracle; so what? It doesn't prove anything, it doesn't do anything, it doesn't claim anything. At best it makes you feel good. But if miracles are just for making us feel better, then we are caught in the same trap of self-delusion. Religious belief is a drug.JohnLDruryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120179182431573460noreply@blogger.com